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Revision Sun. Night Event/Need Input Re. Female Forward Nigh

A place for Utah foosers to communicate and exchange

Postby Foosfest on Fri Oct 20, 2006 11:51 pm

The ladies forward on Sunday night will be the pro/am side of the tournament, and the other side will be the open - not the other way around as was previously posted. We'd like to hear your thoughts on this format, pro or against. The reason behind this is that we are trying improve the skills of our players across the board by adding in some additional variations (as in a little something for everyone).

Regarding female players in SLC in general, from conversations with female players in other states, it's sounding like females are playing a lot more forward than we do here in SLC, and they are getting quite competent at it by doing. This I don't believe is the fault of anyone as there are multiple contributing factors, but perhaps it may be that we need to identify the above outcome from other states as a worthwhile goal for SLC and, if so, think of ways in addition to the great support that has always been present to encourage that happening. I think the fact that we've never had a predominately good female forward (that I know of) come out of Utah speaks to the fact that this is an area that deserves some thought - is there something more we can do?

The female forward night was presented to me by a player and several of the girls thought it was a good idea. The girls want to be fair to everyone. If this in your view is worth one half of one double draw out of a month of tournaments please let us know, and, if not, please feel free to voice your concerns.

Regards,
Lorraine
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Postby nick on Sat Oct 21, 2006 3:16 pm

My wife is just barely starting to playing again :D . She is just a beginner. One of the reasons she quit before. Is she doesn't want to play front and got thrust into it. She plays to hang out and have a good time. She couldn't care less if she ever wins again. Now she feels like here we go again.
We need to develop other players this I agree with. But how fun is it really going to be for Nat and any of the other women who try to score on Lee,Mori,Teddy,Bubba,"R" or myself :cry: . When they are not going to score at all. Then they become discouraged and quit :x . The matches are going to be so long that you might as well play straight race to 7. And not win by 2. On the winners side also.
Point being you're basically telling them in one week to develop a forward game. I know my wife feels really uncomfortable trying to control the ball in the nets. And now she has no choice but to play front. And for me personally, I don't want to play goalie wars and that is what it would amount to.
If you want to help develop the womens game. You start with womens doubles and then maybe singles or designated mix. And "then" you might ask them if they want to try and score on some better defenses. After they've gotten some experience. But right now half of them have have no ball control on the "3" or "5" row, or even have a quality shot at all. Hell half the ladies we've got playing cann't foos to themselves consistently :oops: and you want to put them under the pressure of a tourney. Bad idea :idea: in my oppinion. It is just my oppinion, but after seeing how Nat reacted it gave me a perspective on how she felt. It made me think of the other women.
We won't be participating in this event. We'll keep playing in other events. But this one won't be one of them. Next time "maybe" post as a suggestion first and see what the reaction is. I still think you guys are doing a awsome job, but maybe this could have been planned differently.
Signed
"Lee and Tommies bastard child" (if somebody doesn't no Tommie this would sound like a same sex marriage :roll: :roll: :roll: )
Nick
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Postby Foosfest on Sat Oct 21, 2006 5:41 pm

Nick,

Your point is so well taken. Thank you for speaking up. Nobody should ever feel uncomfortable. Here are my thoughts. Let me know what you think. Change "Ladies Forward Night" to "Ladies Choice Night." For those ladies who don't feel ready, no pressure. For those ladies who feel brave and don't care about difficult defenses even when they don't have the skills yet and want more experience than just in the women's doubles and singles as has been expressed to me, give them the choice for one half of one double draw per month, get behind them and support them for their bravery and determination. If they get into trouble let them have the choice to go back to goal. I'm hearing you on the skill level, Nick, really. Some ladies may ultimately choose a method more like you suggested. Different people learn in different ways and I think we should provide different options - even if it is the school of hard knocks. I can tell you, Nick, I sure appreciated your support last time we played together. Unfortunately, not all are as supportive as you and some of the girls swallow their feelings. I think we need to think about both types because you are right that certain ladies simply do not want to play forward, and then we have the others who feel it is important for them right now and are making sure I know it. While it is about winning, as you well know it's also about providing a comfortable format where players can grow. Thanks again for speaking up. We requested feedback before the tournament because the thoughts of the players are important - nothing is written in stone and no tournament has been played yet. Sorry if this didn't get out sooner - time kind of slipped away. What we're talking about here is one half of one tournament per month. Can we get your support on "Ladies CHOICE Night?"

Lorraine
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Postby SlapShot on Sat Oct 21, 2006 6:21 pm

Okay, I think I'll chime in here. Here's my opinion...

I'm all for the ladies playing front. I am not for having NO Choice in the matter. I'm a very competitive person and I'm not for getting stuck in back to block "thousands" of shots, expected to score every shot from the back, while my partner struggles to learn the front game. Granted this is just a game...however...players should take the time to "practice" on their own time. Once they've practiced enough to develop a forward game the natural progression will be that they are "wanted" to play front despite their gender.

On a side note...I played nets for 2+ years before I was given the "right" to play front. It's not something I think should be just handed over because people want to practice their forward game!!!

Second issue...Why is this "ladies" get to play front? Why isn't this being suggested as a designated doubles tournament? This is where the lesser skilled player plays front and the more seasoned player plays back the whole tournament. It's ridiculous to "just" let the women play front and exclude the beginner male players from having the opportunity as well. Furthmore, designated doubles levels the playing field across the board. Example...Now a better player with a beginner male goalie doesn't just pound the player with a female partner whom is "learning" how to play front.

Lastly...All in all this is a very bad idea!!! I understand the thought process behind what you are trying to do and can apprectiate your efforts. However, it seems to be poorly thought out!

Again, I don't mind lesser players playing front. However, I do think that they need to develop their skills on their own time (as we all have) and then earn the right to play front. Also, it's insane to have a "ladies choose" and exlcude beginner males from the same opportunity.

My 2 Cents...

SlapShot

PS...If you pay my entry, my quarters, and pay for my tab I'll be happy to sit pits all night...Well, maybe not!!!
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Postby SlapShot on Sat Oct 21, 2006 6:26 pm

A quick follow up to my last post...

A question I pose to you...What is the difference between what you are suggesting and when a "green" player doesn't want to play back because the are getting drilled (despite the fact that they can't get the ball or score up front)???

I'm sure we've all experienced this frustration!!!

SlapShot
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Postby nick on Sat Oct 21, 2006 8:39 pm

I thought about a beginners designated. But then it goes back to what I was writing about race to 7 every match, winners included. It's hard enough to stay fired up when a beginners is getting smoked back there. And the thought of standing back there and getting no help up front doesn't neccesarily get me excited to play either. Lee is a quick learner, the fact that he only waited 2 years "Wall" and "Spinner" have been playing a hell of a lot longer than that. And are still stuck in the nets (just kidding guys)LOL. And the fact is, not all the women are going to draw solid goalies and they won't get much if any development out of it anyways. I let you play front because you are an up and coming player. My thought on this is not gender based. But on the fact that I new we would be competetive. I really want to spend more time developing a good offensive series from the nets. You've worked hard on your game and I thought lets give it a try. Because you have a 5 row and a 3 row. I talked about that on my last post. So all gender aside. I bought my table to practice on my time so I could deserve the right to play front. It is something that I earned as you've been doing on your own Lorraine.
I hope not to offend anybody, but it is a very short list of people in this town that has the right to expect me to play goalie for them. I worked hard for years for that priviledge. Lorriane you are quickly getting there also, it just takes time. And you'll be dictating were your partners will be playing.
Signed
Lee and Tommies Bastard child
Nick
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Postby Foosfest on Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:25 pm

Lee,

You have made some great suggestions and valid points and part of the thought process here is to get input before we follow through on this tournament. I'm glad you appreciate my efforts here. I do hear you on the practice. One of the things that has made me practice as hard as I have, however, is that when I have had the opportunity to play forward it made it sink in just how difficult it really is and that makes me value what you guys do and practice harder. So I'm kind of seeing it both ways here seeing as there are some things you can only learn by doing. Sometimes I think a dose of reality is a good motivator. Our group is about being able to discuss things and work through the issues. When we ask for input, it's because we need it - so thank you. This issue is going to be tabled for now pending more discussion so we come up with the best plan - the right plan with all views taken into consideration. I'll make a post to that effect and tomorrow's tournament will be as it usually is. Thanks guys for all your thoughts and help.

Regards,
Lorraine
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Postby SlapShot on Sun Oct 22, 2006 2:56 pm

I thought this warranted posting...

Dear Fooser's,


I am very sad to read the comments about Lady Forwards out of Utah, especially Lorraines comments bout there never being a predominate Lady Forward out of Utah. I myself was a predominate Lady forward from Utah, Carry was an aspiring forward before her death, Wendy Norman played her share of forward before her retirement, as well as Michelle Taylor before her death.

To over come the barrier placed on me, I moved to Portland Oregon so that I could play on an equal playing field and be judged on my abilities as a forward. I played and beat many men in Draw your partners including the greats Dan Kaiser, and many other men from the area. I also was availed the opportunity to play forward in Mixed doubles at the 1981 World Championships with Gil Jackson as my goalie, we placed 13th.

I think the problem is that Male players in Utah are very resistant to having females play in the forward position, like it is some kind of threat to their place in foosball.

If you look at the successful female forwards such as Moya, Cindy Head, Carrie Crowell, Lori Sharanz, they were given respect and opportunity based on their abilities, and were not descriminated against do to their gender.

I think this bias, and discrimination is the reason why more female forwards have not came out of Utah. Next to that in the early eighties female players were given point spots against the men and once the women started winning then the point spot quickly was taken away.

For me this is one big turn off and a big reason I choose not to play foosball in Salt Lake City, forward or goalie.

Sincerely,

Claudia White
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Postby Foosfest on Sun Oct 22, 2006 4:15 pm

Soooo good to hear from Claudia. When I say predominate I don't mean that there haven't been female forwards out of Utah who can play. I'm talking the Cindy Head's, Moya's etc. - the big picture and the general perception that includes the country or globe. Some of the things that you speak of, Claudia, I'm sure some females have or are feeling re discrimination and I'm sure it exists so thank you so much for chiming in. Honestly, for me I would say that even if a male were to discriminate against me I wouldn't allow that get in my way. In Salt Lake I can honestly say that I've experienced more support than I have anything else, and that's the truth. I think the girls in Salt Lake (and we're getting quite a few now) are very capable and could achieve more than anyone to date based on their desire and determination. What I want to do is cultivate an environment where they feel they can acheive. I wish you would come back Claudia as you could help a lot and you are needed. If discriminatory male attitudes bother you, why should they have the floor on what you want. It's not your problem - it's theirs.

A breath of fresh air to hear from you, Claudia. I extend a hearty welcome to you if you should ever decide to play again.

Regards,
Lorraine
Last edited by Foosfest on Sun Oct 22, 2006 7:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby the wall on Sun Oct 22, 2006 4:19 pm

ok here we go im not very good with words but i will give it a try.i had to play the nets for about 7 years because i didnt practice the forward position.my choice but i would have to agree on a lot of your opionions i think if the lower rated player not being just female or male wants to play front then let them if its not working out then switch back. back to positions when i decided that i wanted to play forward i practiced my butt off and finaly i proved my self and now i can play forward pretty good but not as good as i would like but i feel because of practice like lee said i got that chance.ok now for what claudia said i would let you play forward for me any time as a matter of fact i would rather you play forward if we were to play together and the same goes for you lorraine i think you are by far the best active women player we have from lots of practice and to some of the other begginer like cass darlen erin and some others they are pregressing very well and that is good.on a nother note some of us have to try really hard to be good and some of us have it natrul like dustan he can leave for a year and come back and play two or three tournys and be back on level with lee and steve and now teddy.practice makes perfect but i dont have a problem with letting any one play up front if it dont work to try and win trade back.but like nick and lee said i really dont want sit back there the hole time and put up block after block and play box to box the hole game.


p.s. sorry if this dont make sence like i said not good with words


thank the wall
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Postby the wall on Sun Oct 22, 2006 4:26 pm

claudia it would be nice to see you come out and play again you should realy try and come down and play
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Postby Foosfest on Sun Oct 22, 2006 5:23 pm

I think the answer here, and Mike made this suggestion, is to do a bring your partner both beginners and open on the every other Saturday night - I don't mean necessarily every time, but to include that. That way anyone who wants to play forward male/female can do so and know that they have their partner's full support and eliminates problems as all will go into what they are doing with agreement ahead of time. How does that sound to you all?

Lorraine
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Postby darlene on Sun Oct 22, 2006 5:27 pm

Ok, it's my turn.

I like what you said, Steve. And that would work if we weren't in a sexist sport. But we are....

I am fully aware that most don't respect my game. My passing ability is not where it should be. But I am not done yet. I'll improve.

It would be really nice if we could all work together. Remember, we are all in this together. I love everyone of you guys. You are my "foosball family". Let's just play fair.

I won't be there tonight. I have other obligations.


But to those who are going......good luck!

Darlene
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Postby nick on Mon Oct 23, 2006 12:29 pm

Now I've read everbodys post, and I do agree with everthing posted. My issue on this thread. Was saying they had to play front. And my wife doesn't play front. I've offered to play goalie for every female I've drawn and will continue to. There is no doubt that we would be stronger with me up front. Partly because that I am a weak offensive goalie. Now Claudia WAS WRITE IN THIS USED TO BE A SEXEST TOWN. The players of today are not at all. This group is much more participant friendly. We don't have the egos, of I'm good your not so I won't talk to you or try to help you get better. My only issue is everybody including myself worries about the time to finish a match. And with the lesser player would take for ever.
Claudia honey much love, I miss you alot an think about you often.
EMail me and we'll just bs
Signed
Lee and Tommies bastard child
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Postby Foosfest on Mon Oct 23, 2006 7:40 pm

Yes, Nick, your point on having no choice was well taken and made a lot of sense.

I think the bottom line here is that some people play for fun and enjoy allowing a less experienced player up front. And then there is the school of thought that believes a player should be in the position that makes most sense based on skill level. And some people go back and forth between the two. I think that if you are playing with a more serious player who puts in a lot of work for the game in terms of practice, you really need to respect that. I also think that women need to be careful not to assume that the reason they are playing goalie is because they are female as it is usually just what makes more sense to win based on skill level. Also if an issue comes up on the table there is often a natural inclination to go with how the more experienced player feels and this is also not gender based.

I've seen the way Moya talks to male players on the table, and I can't speak for her, but I presume that came from lots of playing and experience. Ain't no guy going to mess with her if she's right you can count on that and I don't care who it is. I don't believe that came from her living in the right location, rather from inside of her and the respect she has for herself. Let's just say she has more skills than just those on the table that brought her from beginner to where she is today. I don't think any amount of sexist men would hold her down (shut up guys - I know what you are thinking) - they might bow down, however.

If a women truly believes she is being discriminated against and doesn't feel she can work it out herself she should feel free to ask for help in addressing the issue because there is no room for that in our group.

There are different schools of thought on how issues should be handled during a game. If you feel like you might conflict with someone, it's probably a good idea to speak up on how you think things should go before the match to avoid conflicts. If you don't speak up then there is a good chance it will be assumed you don't have an issue.

I think overall we as a group do a good job and, like you said, Nick, we have a pretty friendly and supportive group and, most importantly, we have a lot of fun. I hope that nobody's problem should ever be so great that we wouldn't be able to talk it out so we can all feel good. And I would never want to see a situation like in Claudia's case. If she really feels the way she said, and that couldn't be worked out, I think that is very sad indeed.

Regards,
Lorraine
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Postby nick on Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:31 pm

As I said before, I read every post and agree with them all (at least in parts as I've reread them). But you know there was one post that kind of bothered me. And because of one statement I am not letting this go. The fact that Darlene said we are in a sexist sport. I would really like you to think about this. Is this a sexist sport (on a local level) or a result driven sport. As the old coach of the Jets said YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME. If this was not true then why does it bother us so much when we lose. Why would we take the time to analyze our weaknesses and work to improve them.
If I drew Moya or Cindy Head, I would offer to pay all the quaters As I collect point after point in the nets. The fact is "THEY ARE BETTER THAN ME". If I walked out with a pocketful of cash and a trophy or better yet a jacket, do you think I would be embarassed who I won it with "HELL NO".
Now I play goalie alot of times when I know damn good and well we are weaker as a team that way. But I get back there and play my ass off. So other players get an opportunity to play front. What the hell, it's a $5.00 draw. And most of the time I'm just enjoying getting a break with my wife away from the kids(oh yeah and the yagerbombs).
Julie asked me one time how bad did I want to win. I responded really bad it was the qualifier. So she jumped back there and played awsome. And she is a better forward than most of the guys playing at Lumpys. Why? She wanted to win and new we were better off playing as a TEAM that way.
Now does that seem sexist. I hope not. That bothers me. And I don't believe somebody would not let you play front strictly on the premis that you were a woman.
And for gods sake Claudia back when you were a contender, all the guys were wearing aquanet and spandexes. I feel like you haven't been part of the new culture of foosers in this area to lay claimes as to how it is today. I love ya all, especially Claudia who is one of my oldest true friends who I would do anything for. But I just felt that those were uncalled for statments and with out real merit
Signed long winded and over oppiniated
Bastard child
Nick
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Postby the wall on Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:36 pm

ok this is what it comes down to if any one no matter who it is if you want to play front or back speak up or stay wear your at this is getting redickulase (cant spell sorry) and it is something that we all shouldnt be fight over SPEAK UP




THE WALL
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Postby nick on Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:57 pm

last post for a while. sorry my post are always so long
see ya soon
nick
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Postby lumpfn on Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:43 pm

youall should stop trying to date each other and play foos,drink the booze
and play the game for what it is.play fair have fun win or lose,its just foos.
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Postby Foosfest on Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:06 pm

lumpfn,

Who are you?

Lorraine
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Postby foosyourdady on Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:55 pm

if you wont to give the weaker players expriance in the forward posistion
then way not play roto doubles, it wold be more fun and would not be sexest. There would not be anything to complain about either.
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Postby moya_tielens on Sat Oct 28, 2006 4:43 am

Hello Utah!!

Lorraine has asked me to speak a bit about my growing experiences from the perspective of a female fooser. I will start by saying, some of you may not like hearing what I have to say based on the posts I have read in this thread.

First off, foosball, much like the rest of society is male dominated, but I do also propose that woman have sat back and allowed that happen. Obviously, woman have been fighting for equal opportunity for many years now, but I don't see equal opportunity as an overly realistic general reality because males will always believe they are dominant over women... because well.. they physical can dominate women.

The bigger more important issue to me is discrimination and Lorraine, you nailed it in your post about how I am on the table against men. To me, discrimination is a choice where someone will either allow it or disallow it from happening to them. Not in all cases, but in foosball for sure. Now, I know it's not typically as cut and dry as it sounds, but in foosball, and as in all cases.. one is only as weak as one allows themself to be.

Now having said all that..for sure I've experienced discrimination, but the difference between myself and what I've seen in others is that I would never stand for it. But...I also knew my place. I didn't take it as discrimination because I was being put into goal. I just knew I wasn't as good as my forward. However, later on, after I got good...whenever I drew a new guy, I would ask him where he wanted to play and every single time he would say, "front"..without even asking me. I'd be content to let him play..and sit back and do my job, then after we'd lose the first game, I'd ask him to switch and win it back. He'd say after, "how come you didn't tell me you could play front?" I'd say, "would you have listened to me?" Then, of course, came the puzzled..."hmmmm...ya..guess she's right" look.

I do think I was a bit lucky tho, with where I started playing foosball. Now please don't take this as me intending to offend. I'm just stating my opinion, but I do think Canadians are a little more easy going and not quite so male dominating oriented. However, I also worked very hard to be respected as a foosball player. Not a female fooser, just a fooser.

There were a couple of ways I went about doing this. First was practicing by playing pick up games whenever I could. If it was a $5 table then I would put up my $5 and play with someone who was willing to let me get experience. I lost lots and lots of money, but it made me better faster. Then when I felt I had at least some experience, in tournaments I would ask my partner if I could play front for the first few balls or until we were losing beyond their comfortability. I did have pretty supportive guys here, but I also progressed fairly quickly and it didn't take me too long before becoming a dominating player.

Interesting tho that my local scene was pretty different from the Tour scene. Now I don't know if it again was the difference between Americans and Canadians, but wow..is about all I can say. The guys pretty much treated the girls like shit. It's still pretty bad..making all kinds of jokes and insults about female foosball. Of course girls don't wanna get in there and get all rough and tumble with the boys because if we can't hang then we end up getting razzed so badly that we don't wanna do it again. Foosball is bad enough that way already. It takes a very strong person with a strong desire and self belief to withstand the pressures of playing foosball. Now you have to double that for a female and even tripple it for a female that wants to play front over a male. Seriously guys...trust me ..I know. Girls weren't even "allowed" to play pick up games against the PM's back when I was starting to play. They would push their quarters off the table and laugh. If you had quarters up and it was your turn, they would leave the table and go and play on another one with eachother. It was really that bad. So maybe I was hardened a bit and I'm a product of the environment. I dunno..I just wanted to kick their asses so f'n bad I was about to kill myself to do it. That's called desire. When you wanna prove something so badly to someone that you are willing to do whatever it takes to do it. That does have a lot to do with someone's character tho..and that's me. That won't be in everyone..or every female, but I personally had a very strong drive to stick it right up those PM's asses. :P

As far as tournaments go..a Designated tournament where the lower ranked player plays front can be fun..maybe once a month. Another one is Roto..someone mentioned. And also..a Bring Your Partner is a good way to allow a female to play with someone who she knows will be supportive of her. Someone mentioned that too. A Designated Mixed event might be tough because the female might feel trapped and then put off..as someone also mentioned. That might be better left as a specialty event at a larger tourney, after getting more experience. It's a bit of a hard thing for me to suggest because for many many years I was the only female who was playing foosball in our area. It wasn't possible to cater to any females. We had BYPs, DYPs and Pro-Ams..and that was it.

Anyhow..now that I've written a book here. I think it is important for both male and female, to pay attention to what role they are playing. Is the woman settling and allowing herself to be dominated and discriminated against because she feels she can't or doesn't want to take the heat? And is the male not being supportive of the female, recognizing that she might need a lil encouragement? It really is a choice that we all make.

Sorey for the length. Hope this helps a lil bit.

*hugs*

Moya
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Postby nick on Sat Oct 28, 2006 4:34 pm

OK I'm done keeping my mouth shut. And for a week every time I started to type something I was afraid I would offend somebody. But here we go, now I am the first to believe in equality, as my posts have shown in the past. My wife works construction (I've trained as a roofer,tile setter,drywall and electrical) for me and all 4 of my little girls clean up our construction sites and do odd jobs to make extra money. Like replacing outlet covers lightswitches etc... generally considered mens jobs, but I obviously don't believe in that by my actions.
So I ask you why is it fair for an individual of any gender or creed to have the right, to feel they should have over somebody who has played longered and practices consistently. These are the individuals who are really paying there dues to dictate on how they should start. While other players are doing nothing to improve there game. And that is fine if that is your perogative. But to use sexist as a reason why they don't play front is BS. I dig Darlene she is cool as hell but she is wrong by that statement. The reason Claudia had to play goalie around here was the fact the forwards who she played with, were generally better than her.
The comment was stated that this was a sexist sport. And that was why designated wouldn't work (I am paraphrasing here). When that had absolutely nothing to do with it. The fact is if we let most of the women (excluding Lorraine, Julie and Tommie) and the male beginners in this town just shoot a rack any shot they wanted. With no defense they would misexecute at a very high percentage. And that is with no defense. Now put an experienced goalie back there and they don't score at all. Now what are they taking away from that but discouragement. The comments about designated was how long the matches would take. Not anything else was said about gender or skill level. Now why is that a gender thing.
Moya worked her ass off consistently to kick all comers asses (as did Cindy Head, Shelley Langley and numerous others that slip my mind right now). And earned that by working harder than everybody else. She did this on her own time. Now alot of these people we are talking about don't do anything to improve. We should be obligated to letting them play front so it doesn't become a sexist thing is wrong. Roto doubles sounds awsome that was one of my favorite events in leagues. Lets do it.
I never ever had a problem with designated forward. It was the fact if they don't want to play front then what. So what is fair then. If Moya walked in and played here, she would play front. And if nobody knew who she was that would be one thing. But a guy like Mori (who is so unassuming) walked in somewhere and they didn't know him, the average beginner would think he should play front. Perseption is the issue here. And yes in Moyas case it is the fact that she is a very attractive woman who doesn't look like the fierce competiter she is and Mori is his stature and demeanor. That is a perception thing and that is a different argument than this one.
Sorry for being so blunt but this is getting crazy. We had to drag in one of the top players (of any gender) in the world here is nuts. Thank you for your time and oppinion Moya. But I think the original comments were forgotten and it took a life of its own on. It is not gender based it is in relationship to the time factor of the matches. That is it.
Lee and Tommies Bastard child
Nick
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Postby moya_tielens on Sat Oct 28, 2006 6:43 pm

Hi Nick,

Thank you for your comments and I understand where you are coming from, giving what you have just said about you and your family. That is great that you are that way and I commend you for being so, but there are two realities here.

One is that woman definitely feel like they are being held back, but for two reasons...because they hold themselves back and because they feel like they are being held back. There is no right or wrong to any of it. It's just the way it is..or appears to be.

The other is that this is a male dominated sport. Competition, in general, usually is. In anything male dominated where it's co-ed, you are going to get discrimination. Even when I played co-ed football in PE in school there was discrimination. Even tho it was in our favor, it was still discrimination. Guys had to tackle guys, but guys weren't allowed to tackle girls. Girls to girls and guys to girls had to play two hand touch below the waist. F that!!! Myself and another girl wouldn't go for that at all...we told our teacher that we were to be considered as guys. Tackle and be tackled, no more no less.

I had two points that I wanted to make coming in here saying what I said. One was that women could not be discriminated against if they did not let it happen, but it's up to them. And guys could try to be more supportive and encouraging, just as they would a rookie trying to get better. Please, you need to understand...in no way shape or form do I blame discrimination on men. I mean they have to be partially to blame, but again and again..it's the women who allow it to happen to them.

Lorraine's intentions were not to start some big thing. She asked me to say a few words, not to diss the guys at all, but to share my experiences from my perspective so that the women could find some strength in knowing they are not fighting a losing battle. She also wanted me to share some ideas on how the women can get better playing in a co-ed male dominated sport. Please don't take what I said as something to start a bitch fest because it wasn't meant as such.

I have always maintained my postition that I think that females can be competitive in this sport, as long as they are willing to make all the same sacrafices that males do. I think women don't think competition is as important to them, which is why you don't see a lot of women competiting.

Anyhow, please don't be pissed off. That's not what was intended. Lorraine had the best intentions for the player base and females in general. I think there should be more discussion for women, but there's really no outlet.

Anyhow...that's where I'm coming from.

*hugs*

Moya
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Postby Foosfest on Sat Oct 28, 2006 10:33 pm

Moya & Nick,

Moya, thank you so much for taking your valuable time to share with us your perspective. You have allowed yourself to be a resource for us to draw upon, and that you took the time says a lot about you.

I believe that if you have resources and you don't ask or allow yourself that priviledge then you are cutting yourself short. As you know, in no way was this meant to be an education for the men. Simply, it was very interesting to me what kinds of thoughts go on in the mind of someone who has obviously done very well in this sport - in this male dominated sport. I asked you to, "Share with us your thoughts on this issue as they unfolded over the years." I had no idea what you would say as I do not know you personally, but whatever it was I knew it would be interesting to me and probably to a lot of people. You did that - thank you sooooo much for caring about our SLC foosball community.

Nick, Moya will tell you, I am quite supportive of the guys here in SLC and did not try to "drag anbody into" anything to prove anyone right or wrong, simply hoping that we could have the honor of getting some insight. There's a big world of foosers out there that extend beyond our small community and there is always more to learn, if you reach out. The purpose of NetFoos is to connect Foosers together. You said some good things on your post(s), Nick, I told you so. You might have gotten a little over-sensitive here - defending when no defense was necessary. Nobody was trying to prove anything you personally said was wrong, and in many ways some of what Moya said supported your feelings while not actually directed at you, personally.

People should be able to have conversations with whomever they choose, and who better than those who have actually been there and acheived what you want to achieve. I would not take any offense if you asked Todd Lofredo to share his thoughts on this issue. I would say, right on, Nick, gather up our resources, we can all learn. In fact, that would be very interesting and cool indeed.

I love you, Nick. You're such a nice person, but you misunderstand. And while you have the perfect right to say what you will, by your comment on my choice to invite Moya to speak, which I believe is a gift to us all; whether it was or was not your intent, it doesn't really matter, I take that as your trying to control or manipulate who I converse with. Well, that's impossible, and how could I be bothered by something I don't allow in the first place - good try, though.

Speaking in general and not to anyone specific, the topic of women in a male dominated sport is a very interesting, valid, and important topic that should not be minimized in any way. I invite anyone to share their perspective in the attempt for all of us to better understand one another and make foosball in SLC a comfortable environment for all. It doesn't mean because people are conversing that they are fighting. I suppose if you want to fight you can, but that's not the intent of this thread and I don't think it will get you much respect. Everyone has a right to their view, and perspectives can never be understood unless they are shared.

Lorraine
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